Family history

[Elawin]

Taking of surnames I have a very unusual one which makes ancestry tracing much easier.

The problem we had was that, when my Mum and Dad were growing up, many of the first names people were known by were not necessarily the names that were on their birth certificates, and having reasonably common surnames did not help. My Dad was always known as Jack, although his name was William and although he was not the oldest son he was called after my grandfather. He had two brothers who had William as their second name, and one of those was always called Bill. My Aunty Ethel was really Gladys. My Mum was called Nan, or Nancy, although her name was Violet. One of her brothers was called Toby, but his name was really Albert. Just to confuse everybody even more, my grandmother (Mum's mum) was Esther. Her eldest son Toby's wife was also Esther (and was called Esther), but her eldest daughter's (Mum's older sister's) name was also Esther, and she was called May. And so on..... I said in another post that my grandmother (and my Dad) lived in Barking. There are/were a lot of Winches in Barking, but not one of them is/was related to us. I have two cousins called Leslie, one of whom is also a Winch, and I know of a Leslie Winch who came from Barking and was not related - we caused havoc down the Job Centre when we were both out of work at the same time, and had the same sign on days and times!

 

[Elawin]

My surname originates from Dorset, though I know of no obvious connection with that fine county. My understanding is that an English ancestor settled in Ireland in the 17th century and the surname became Gaelicised. When having an Irish name became somewhat detrimental, some other enterprising ancestor reverted to the English version, which remained in place. I have sometimes wondered whether I should cheekily switch back to Irish again.

My first husband was Irish. His name started off as one thing in the 11th Century and before, then was anglicised, then gaelicised to something similar to but not the same as the original Irish name (and not the same as another gaelic version which is spelt and sounds nothing like it, although it has the same roots), and then was anglicised again. Just to confuse everyone his father started using gaelic version mark 2.

 

[Duck59]

I think that a lot of Irish names have quite a lot of variants. There are also a variety of pronunciations. For example, my partner's surname is Walsh, which is pronounced as it reads in Leinster and Ulster, but more like Welsh (or sometimes Wulsh) in Connacht and Munster (the latter her province). However, having grown up in England, she is long reconciled to the hard 'a' pronunciation after becoming fed up with trying to explain.

 

[classic33]

My family history is a bit complicated. My Dad was born in 1903 and his birth was registered to an address in Barking. Apparently, however, in those days births were usually registered to the mother's home address and not necessarily the actual place of birth. It was only in the 1960's that my Dad learnt that he was actually born at Warley Hospital in Brentwood, Essex. As my grandfather was in the Essex Regiment stationed at Warley, we assume that this was the hospital attached to the barracks and not the lunatic asylum of the same name! We do know that he fought at Mafeking, and he was mentioned in a book about the army in Essex. Dad was one of 16 children, all but 4 of whom survived into adulthood. Only the wife of one of my uncles is still alive now, and she is well into her 90s. Very little is known about my grandfather, although he was living in West Ham prior to 1899 when he married my grandmother. Her family came from Cambridgeshire. My great-great-grandfather was born about 1830 and my great-great-grandmother in about 1829. My greatgrandmother was born in 1861 and was then the youngest of 9 children. She did however have younger siblings, but we do not know how many. My grandmother was born in 1882.

My mother was born in 1907; she was one of 7. Her father was in the Royal Navy (he started off as a stoker) and apparently she was born at the Royal Naval Hospital in Gillingham. My grandmother was living in Gillingham at the time, but we believe he was away at sea. They lived for a while near Sunningdale and Windsor Great Park, and were friends with The Prince and Princess of Wales (later King George V and Queen Mary). I remember seeing photos of him with them, and letters, but don't know what happened to them. He and my grandmother lived in Bow for a while when my Mum was young, and then they moved to Chigwell Row. By this time he had retired from the navy and owned a newsagents in the village. One of her sisters used to work in a large ?manor house nearby, where she used to do all the embroidery. My Mum married her first husband in about 1927. My brother was born in 1929, and my sisters in 1934 and 1936. Their father died in the early 1940s. I know very little about him. No one could trace the immediate side of his family back. My Mum never really said anything about him except that during the war they had a car and had unlimited supplies of petrol (!). There weren't even any photos. Even my brother who would have been a teenager when he died knew nothing about him other than as his father, and even asked me if Mum had ever told me anything. Mum worked at Kelsey Hayes in Dagenham and it was there that she met my Dad.

Try
http://www.wmbr.org.za/view.asp?pg=research&pgsub=databases&head1=Search
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/253/essex-regiment/
Worth noting, given the above
Chigwell Row
https://www.francisfrith.com/chigwell-row/growing-up-in-the-village-1960-1965_memory-397891

 

[classic33]

If you're planning on searching Irish records, it's worth remembering that the Church of England records will be seperate from the Church of Ireland, both protestant but one will have the records over here(the UK), the other Ireland. If you were Church of Ireland and married someone who was Church of England, you'd have to view both.

Catholic records were sorted at Parish level, as were the Church of Ireland records, not town level. Both churches having seperate Parish's to each other.

And should you get stuck you might just find you have to apply to the Bishop of the Parish for help

 

[Elawin]

Try
http://www.wmbr.org.za/view.asp?pg=research&pgsub=databases&head1=Search
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/253/essex-regiment/
Worth noting, given the above
Chigwell Row
https://www.francisfrith.com/chigwell-row/growing-up-in-the-village-1960-1965_memory-397891

Thanks for the links. The Forces war records have confused me even more. There are plenty of entries for people with his name, but I'd have to pay to look at these. The free access provides very little information and certainly no access to specific people's records. The only references to West Ham and Brentwood/Essex Regiment in the same breath are far too late for my grandfather's involvement pre-World War 1, but that does not of course mean that hospital care was not carried out at Brentwood or that whatever regiment he started off in prior to World War 1 did not end up as part of the Essex Regiment and was not the same as the ones which began at West Ham at the beginning of World War 1 which eventually did become part of the Essex Regiment, if you see what I mean. There are people with the same name in the East Kent Regiment (Buffs) but as far as I know the only member of the family who was in that regiment was my uncle Bert (or Herbert - the one who was killed in North Africa) and obviously the dates would have been all wrong as well.

The Francis Frith info for that photo is wrong. Manor Road was never in Chigwell Row. Although it is a continuation of Lambourne Road, it is in Hainault (see https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6176381,0.1016417,14z?hl=en), and also the other side of the village at Lambourne End. Chigwell Row still is the bit that skirts Lambourne Road, quite clearly marked on that map. My Mum lived in Gravel Lane for most of her young and teenage years. The cottages are still there, albeit renumbered, at the beginning of Gravel Lane (as are the then butchers and the newsagents, and the Maypole pub) - to the right of the Chigwell Row Water Works marked on the map. The big house where my aunt was in service was at the other end of Pudding Lane. It was no longer still there in my lifetime, although there were traces of the grounds, boundary walls etc still to be seen in the 1970s and possibly still are. I haven't been up there much since the replaced Romford Road with an awful dual carriageway. Of course in the good old days, Mum used to make us all walk the 8 miles or so from our then home (plus another couple of miles further on to the pub at Lambourne End on a good day); even the nearest bus stop to the village from our neck of the woods was about 3 miles away. I never even visited half of the villages round there until I got my first car in the 1960s. No direct public transport in them days, you see. Any buses there were went to the nearest railway station (Ilford) or to London.

There is a photo of the pub on the Frith site - no. 1 in the photos of Chigwell Row - but again the description below that photo is completely wrong. The pub they are referring to was the Kings Head in Chigwell which was renamed the Maypole in Barnaby Rudge. I knew both of those pubs well - in fact I think I knew all the pubs in Chigwell Row and Lambourne End! The pub of choice was the Two Brewers, which was more "teenage girls-" and later family-friendly in my younger days. In fact I often used to go there when my daughter was young. The Retreat was more your normal teenage-frequented pub in the 1960s; alas, it is no longer there, having been demolished to make way for a housing estate.

I think a lot of the confusion has arisen because Google, in particular, refers to the village as Chigwell, and not Chigwell Row, and lumps them both together, whereas they are two entirely different places!

 

[classic33]

The descriptions are what you've just given, peoples memories of the area. Do the names match?

Link where you've said he was with the google search. Then think founders.

 

[Lullabelle]

My maiden name is Smith not easy trying to trace family when there is 1 vital piece of info missing and it would take Sherlock Holmes to find it!

 

[sidevalve]

The Forces war records have confused me even more. There are plenty of entries for people with his name, but I'd have to pay to look at these

Yep - that stopped me too.

 

[classic33]

Yep - that stopped me too.

Have you contacted the regiment? They tend to have their own collections. Often detailing minor stuff that wouldn't be on "Official Records". Normally because it would take up too much.

 

[Elawin]

I think that a lot of Irish names have quite a lot of variants. There are also a variety of pronunciations. For example, my partner's surname is Walsh, which is pronounced as it reads in Leinster and Ulster, but more like Welsh (or sometimes Wulsh) in Connacht and Munster (the latter her province). However, having grown up in England, she is long reconciled to the hard 'a' pronunciation after becoming fed up with trying to explain.

I knew someone whose surname was Welch. He insisted it was pronounced 'Welch' too, and used to get quite upset that a lot of people pronounced it as 'Welsh'.

 

[Elawin]

Catholic records were sorted at Parish level, as were the Church of Ireland records, not town level. Both churches having seperate Parish's to each other.

All very well if the records exist.

My first husband could not get a copy of his birth certificate because the records in the Irish parish he was born in no longer existed, and neither of his parents had a copy either. When we got married, the registry office accepted his medical card and driving licence as proof of identity/nationality.

My daughter's father had no birth certificate either. The place where the records were kept had been bombed during WWII and all records held there were destroyed.

 

[sidevalve]

Have you contacted the regiment? They tend to have their own collections. Often detailing minor stuff that wouldn't be on "Official Records". Normally because it would take up too much.

As I mentioned I don't know what regiment - if I knew the details I would bother to search.

 

[classic33]

All very well if the records exist.

My first husband could not get a copy of his birth certificate because the records in the Irish parish he was born in no longer existed, and neither of his parents had a copy either. When we got married, the registry office accepted his medical card and driving licence as proof of identity/nationality.

My daughter's father had no birth certificate either. The place where the records were kept had been bombed during WWII and all records held there were destroyed.

Or if the parents could afford to register the birth(Catholic records only), and could be upto a month after the actual birth. Which is why I know the next step up is the bishop. Who at the time was John Paul II.

 

[Elawin]

Or if the parents could afford to register the birth(Catholic records only), and could be upto a month after the actual birth. Which is why I know the next step up is the bishop. Who at the time was John Paul II.

It was Pope Pius XII when my first husband was born. My daughter's father was neither Irish nor English nor Catholic