History of Pizza

[Timenspace]

[Mod comment: post moved to start new topic (TR)]

Speaking of pizza, did some reading today.

Fascinating history.

Apparently the ancient pizzas (14 th century and earlier) had lard, garlic and salt as topping. I 'd love to try that this weekend.

Mozzarella was introduced later, and tomatoes even later, 16 and 17th century...if I remember correctly. Please do correct me if I err.

 

[karadekoolaid]

tomatoes even later, 16 and 17th century...if I remember correctly. Please do correct me if I err.

Don't know whether it's true or not, but I read somewhere that the first Italian pizza with tomatoes (which came from South America) was not until the late 1880s, in Naples.
The tomato arrived in Europe in the 16th century, but for some reason or another, society thought it was poisonous, or toxic, or whatever, because it was identified as a member of the deadly nightshade family (solinacaea) and it was treated with caution. Additionally, it was very expensive. The first tomato sauce recipe appeared in 1694, in Italy , but the fruit was still treated with suspicion and it wasn't until the 19th century that tomatoes really took off in Europe.
We can thank the "New World" not only for tomatoes, but also for potatoes, squash, pumpkin, zucchini, green beans, sweet corn, bell peppers, chile peppers, vanilla, chocolate (and cacao), not to mention tequila and rum.

 

[Timenspace]

The first tomato sauce recipe appeared in 1694

Yes, along those lines. What I gathered from the text, true or false, that tomato was used on pizza as early as 17 and 18th century as a quick and cheap snack, sold by the lazzaroni, and as you say, tomato was scorned upon, but, they claim, that made the tomato cheap, no one really wanted it...
Then came the princess or queen Margherita, and the pizza in her honour that , which like in modern celebrity marketing, propelled the pizza into mainstream...

If I narrowed the times correctly...

I will re-read the article slowly and carefully once more, historians tend to agree and disagree on a number of matters...

Thank you for the input! Most interesting!

Perhaps I can send you the link to this Cucina Italiana article, if you want?

 

[msmofet]

Don't know whether it's true or not, but I read somewhere that the first Italian pizza with tomatoes (which came from South America) was not until the late 1880s, in Naples.
The tomato arrived in Europe in the 16th century, but for some reason or another, society thought it was poisonous, or toxic, or whatever, because it was identified as a member of the deadly nightshade family (solinacaea) and it was treated with caution. Additionally, it was very expensive. The first tomato sauce recipe appeared in 1694, in Italy , but the fruit was still treated with suspicion and it wasn't until the 19th century that tomatoes really took off in Europe.
We can thank the "New World" not only for tomatoes, but also for potatoes, squash, pumpkin, zucchini, green beans, sweet corn, bell peppers, chile peppers, vanilla, chocolate (and cacao), not to mention tequila and rum.

They ate and drink out of pewter vessels. The acid in the tomatoes caused lead poisoning.
Read more here:
Why the Tomato Was Feared in Europe for More Than 200 Years

 

[Timenspace]

caused lead poisoning.

Interesting you mention lead, lead poisoning is one of the theories for the great musicians health issues and death Ludwig van Beethoven, if my memory serves me right...he died in 1827 I believe...

Most likely there have been (many) other cases...

 

[MypinchofItaly]

Speaking of pizza, did some reading today.

Fascinating history.

Apparently the ancient pizzas (14 th century and earlier) had lard, garlic and salt as topping. I 'd love to try that this weekend.

Mozzarella was introduced later, and tomatoes even later, 16 and 17th century...if I remember correctly. Please do correct me if I err.

Pretty accurate even if always a long-debated topic.
Looks like the very first pizza (mostly related to the topping rather than to the dough - which for instance was a sort of flat stone as there weren’t any traces of yeast yet) is from ancient romans who used to top it with figs or even plums and a sort of lard, became then the famous Pizza e Fichi.

 

[CookieMonster]

" . . . even if always a long-debated topic."
^^^
that!

the Romans had yeast - mostly for fermenting drinks... as did the Egyptians . . .
(yeast was found in Egyptian tombs; which was multiplied & used to make 'modern' Egyptian beer - reported to be 'awful')
the Roman breads were sourdough types - using the natural yeasts

the question is: "and exactly what is a pizza?"
flat breads are known since pre-history - so is pizza just a flat bread with any kind of anything on top?
Flammkuchen is often called "German Pizza" - if you've not tried it, it is a tasty treat - but it is unleavened....

 

[msmofet]

" . . . even if always a long-debated topic."
^^^
that!

the Romans had yeast - mostly for fermenting drinks... as did the Egyptians . . .
(yeast was found in Egyptian tombs; which was multiplied & used to make 'modern' Egyptian beer - reported to be 'awful')
the Roman breads were sourdough types - using the natural yeasts

the question is: "and exactly what is a pizza?"
flat breads are known since pre-history - so is pizza just a flat bread with any kind of anything on top?
Flammkuchen is often called "German Pizza" - if you've not tried it, it is a tasty treat - but it is unleavened....

Yeast was found everywhere, (mostly in the air and on fruit skins) and were fed and multiplied.

In Exodus from Egypt, people had no time to take with them, so had they had unleavened bread. That's why they eat matzo during Passover as remembrance.

At least that is what I remember from bible class.

 

[CookieMonster]

well, "unleavened" has multiple aspects.

I have made my own bread starter - sourdough and also buckwheat.
'wild yeast' exists/collects on pretty much anything in the field . . . albeit at a 'low level'
it takes about 10 days - one 'multiples' the yeast by tossing a % of it, adding more flour/grain to the mix, again and again, until the mixture aka 'starter' has a 'denser' colony of yeast.

if you take that same flour - with it's natural yeast content - and make/bake something from it without giving it time to rise or added yeast to help it rise . . . . that's 'unleavened'

if the Jews of Exodus had more than 10 minutes to pack & leave,,,, certainly they could have packed up some 'starter-to-go.'
more likely, the starter did not survive, and babysitting more starter was likely a dicey business while in full flight . . .

Flammkuchen originated as an 'bake oven temperature testing tool'
not much different than tossing a bread cube into the oil to test for 'frying temp'
Flammkuchen then 'got expanded toppings' as a 'treat-for-the-kids' . . .

 

[MypinchofItaly]

A few years ago I attended an event held inside the Imperial Forums in Rome, about the food of Ancient Rome and what the ancient Romans ate. It was wonderful and very interesting to have taken part in this event - and yes, especially the evocative location.
Among the various topics covered - you can imagine how far-reaching the topic itself was! - with documents from the time, yeast was not introduced into Roman bread-making until much later when the Greeks were already using it.

This is a small extract of what was said and which I wrote with the patronage of the Caerealia Association of Rome:

"Bread was always fundamental to the Roman diet – although until the introduction of wheat, bread looked and tasted very different from what we think of today. Before wheat became commonplace, Roman bread was made from spelt, and it was unleavened and generally very hard. Once wheat bread started to replace spelt bread, the dough became fluffier and new attention was devoted to finely grinding
the flour;
the Cibarius, an inexpensive dark bread, less refined bread was for the slaves and the poor, whilst white and highly refined bread like the Panis Siligeneo Flore was considered to be the best and was reserved for the elites, who could afford it. Yeast was introduced later from Greece. "

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

But a pizza without tomatoes is just something on toast.. runs for cover

 

[TastyReuben]

But a pizza without tomatoes is just something on toast.. runs for cover

As an American (with that history of pizza) who loves pizza, that’s something I actually struggle with - when does it go from pizza to flatbread with things on it? Is…GASP!!!…pizza just flatbread with things on it?!?!?!

I truly (and I’m being serious) try to keep an open mind and not overthink it, but it does worry me at times. I know I’ve been other places in the world where what they were selling as pizza was not pizza in any way, shape, or form to me, and I just had to sort of look away pretend it didn’t exist in my world - “Oh we had pizza last night with <ingredient I’m not used to> and <another ingredient I’m not used to>,” and I could answer only with, “That’s nice…what kind of car do you drive?” anything to change the subject, because if I continued on talking about the thing they were calling pizza, I don’t know what would have happened.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

As an American (with that history of pizza) who loves pizza, that’s something I actually struggle with - when does it go from pizza to flatbread with things on it? Is…GASP!!!…pizza just flatbread with things on it?!?!?!

I truly (and I’m being serious) try to keep an open mind and not overthink it, but it does worry me at times. I know I’ve been other places in the world where what they were selling as pizza was not pizza in any way, shape, or form to me, and I just had to sort of look away pretend it didn’t exist in my world - “Oh we had pizza last night with <ingredient I’m not used to> and <another ingredient I’m not used to>,” and I could answer only with, “That’s nice…what kind of car do you drive?” anything to change the subject, because if I continued on talking about the thing they were calling pizza, I don’t know what would have happened.

Passionate about pizza ay!
I can’t remember who posted an excellent link to an article about the majority of Italians still not having even heard of Pizza in the 1960’s and it being a wholly an American immigrant invention.
But tbh I find the whole provenance of food thing a bit like kids squabbling over who thought of hopscotch first.

For me if there’s a flatish bread/dough base, some sort of tomato passata and some sort of cheese then that’s a pizza even if you put spaghetti on it..

 

[CookieMonster]

any one who has traveled (?extensively?) domestic and/or foreign, will have seen things labelled "pizza" that leaves them a-wondering . . .

worked for a multi-national. pre-internet/zoom/etc . . . twice a year the engineers would gather and review the status and progress of various 'issues.' delegates from 8 different countries . . . meeting host 'rotated' among those locations. having thus seen a lot of 'best pizza' in many places, when it was my turn I took them to (the old...) Pizza Hut, for pitchers of beer and Pizza Supreme.
they were totally blown away - never see/eaten such a thing . . .

having been in places were I didn't speak the language, , , I've eaten a lot of stuff I really was sure what I was eating. but it was fun!

 

[TastyReuben]

that’s a pizza even if you put spaghetti on it..

In my neck of the woods, it’s very common (and very much looked forward to) when having spaghetti to butter a plain piece of supermarket white bread, load it with a big forkful of spaghetti, fold the bread in half, and snarf it down before all the butter melts and you have orange butter-sauce running down your arm. It’s one of life’s greatest, greatest pleasures.

Knowing that, I had spaghetti left over, had some pizza dough in the fridge, and thought, “Why not? It’s basically a good ol’ spaghetti sandwich.”

Opened the dough, spread the sauced-up spaghetti, added some cheese, baked it off, and…it was ok, but it wasn’t great. It was nowhere near the culinary delight a spaghetti sandwich is.

I did, and not that long ago, have chili (con carne) left over, and I did the same - put it on pizza dough and topped with cheddar or cojack or something like that, and that was quite good.

I’m sure I’ve posted all three on the forum.