Lab grown chocolate

Perhaps the writer should have said " Right, it's time for those who sacked and pillaged to pay a just price for an exquisite product".
You have a point there. Whoever said food wasn't political!

But climate change is something which seriously affects poorer nations around the globe affecting crop production and livelyhoods. So not sure why you are so anti that particular phrase.
 
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No, I'm far more concerned that those people who think they're doing something about it are actually playing into the hands of corporate giants, who would absolutely love to have an artificial chocolate substitute, so they can create even worse "chocolate" bars and bypass the (generally poor) farmers. A cacao tree takes about 5 years to produce fruit, and each tree will, on average, produce a mere 9 lbs of cocoa beans - which have to be removed from the pod by hand, dried out in the sun, sorted, and processed before they can even be sold.
The writer also tosses in the Western Universe's horror story of "ecological damage", "deforested land", "pesticides", etc. ( "Climate change!"), which I personally find offensive, considering that Western nations and their industrial revolution pumped billions and billions of junk into the atmosphere, razed huge areas of forest and woodland to build factories, and are now bleating about "climate change" to developing countries which are struggling to produce enough food (or saleable commodities) to increase their GDP or feed the huge majority of their poverty-stricken populations.
Perhaps the writer should have said " Right, it's time for those who sacked and pillaged to pay a just price for an exquisite product".
I’ll be honest your initial response sounded like you hadn’t actually read the article, just saw it was ‘The Guardian’ and just fired off on a tried and tested response befitting a man of a certain age and ethnicity who gets angry with the likes of people like Greta.
Now it sounds like you have actually read it and perhaps read up a little more on the topic and are giving a more considered reasonable response which from my POV is a totally different thing that’s more worthy.

They do have an artificial chocolate substitute and they use it. Recently they announced Penguin and Club bars (remember them?) will no longer be chocolate but “chocolate flavoured coating”
Good and bad chocolate has always existed and always been graded. This way of doing things has been around for eons and people vote with their feet, if it doesn't taste good they buy something else. Connoisseurs will always like the things they like and be prepared to pay a premium and there’s always a market for them. Your average Joe will potentially enjoy a different type of thing, maybe even a chocolate flavoured bar.

The people concerned with environmental damage and the companies doing the damage are not the same thing at all. A white westerner plebeian at the bottom of the pile has nothing to do with corporate giants deciding how to squeeze the bottom line and conflating the two is muddying the waters.
Past feeling offended by the mention of environmental damage what would you suggest people who are concerned about environmental problems like deforestation actually do?
Or does being a Westerner preclude you from being allowed to have an opinion?

“Paying the price” and making a product more valuable will only increase the desire to produce that crop, with the knock on effect of increasing the damage that’s done.
So be quiet, say and do nothing? Keep supporting the status quo because if you don’t you’ll be a whiny person from Surbiton?!

I guess I’m also asking if you do not believe that deforestation and environmental damage occurs for the mass production of crops? Are you a climate change denier? Or perhaps just a fatalist?

Before this thread gets locked (ironically by mods who took it in this direction) I’d like to point out I did not take it down this pathway. My question was would you eat it? I even tried to bring it back on track to a lighter note but bias on other more political topics has taken this far away from its original question.
 
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Before this thread gets locked (ironically by mods who took it in this direction) I’d like to point out I did not take it down this pathway. My question was would you eat it? I even tried to bring it back on track to a lighter note but bias on other more political topics has taken this far away from its original question.

Well, about 16% of the thread is on topic... 😶
 
Before this thread gets locked (ironically by mods who took it in this direction)

Mod.comment:
I'm not going to lock it. Its a worthy discussion and is pertinent to both the original article and to food production in general. I wouldn't say it was off topic really. The main thing is that we need to be civil and polite to each other and can debate a subject calmly and accept we have different points of view. Just keep thing polite and don't make personal attacks. And I am not implying that anyone has made personal attacks, by the way. Any such behaviour should be Reported and not responded to in thread.

Out of mod. mode:
The irony is that deforestation in South America has threatened cacao crop production. This wasn't mentioned in the article which concentrated on the problems in Africa mainly.
 
OK
I haven't responded yet as my remarks would not solely reflect cacao production.
I do symphatise with karadekoolaid 's sentiments.
Both of us living in "3rd world countries" we probably have overlapping experiences.
People here are poor. They need to make a living and if that means destroying habitats so they can live another day, we can all be up in arms. But if your choice is to eat today (literally) or have food in 5 years time, you eat today as otherwise you are not around in 5 years time.
So alternatives need to be created. And that is not "lab chocolate" as that doesn't help people on the ground
A fair price for chocolate would help. Or an alternative crop that earns people a decent living.
I do not know the answer and I will have another beer right now, but I do know that it's generally forgotten that people in 3rd world countries struggle for survival. They really hope they have enough money to buy a meal for the family tomorrow and sometimes the first world countries forget or are not aware..
Off soap box, back to drinking locally produced beer
 
People here are poor. They need to make a living and if that means destroying habitats so they can live another day, we can all be up in arms. But if your choice is to eat today (literally) or have food in 5 years time, you eat today as otherwise you are not around in 5 years time.
So alternatives need to be created. And that is not "lab chocolate" as that doesn't help people on the ground

Well put. Its a huge issue we are talking about here and there are no simple solutions whatever one's political viewpoint.

Lab chocolate might help people on the ground in the sense that it would be seen as 'not real chocolate', so perhaps the real deal would command better prices. But its far too complex an interrelationship between various world markets and consumers to possibly predict that.
 
I agree completely that by and large we have the mortality we can afford. There are mouths to feed and personally I don’t see any blame attached to the people clearing land to grow cash crops. What choice do they have?
But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening and happening at an alarming rate. Approximately 10 million hectares of deforestation every year.

I look at what’s happening in Spain (who produce over 4 billion quids worth of food for the UK and over £65 billion quids worth for export worldwide) and it’s clear it is unsustainable.
They don’t have the water available for these crops. The current rate of desertification of 1,500 square kilometers per year and the production of thirsty crops is fast leading them into a crisis. Approximately 75% of their land is at risk.

Wonder why lettuce in the UK has caused fatal e coli outbreaks? Well what sort of water do you think farmers are driven to using? Water there is now an expensive black market commodity.

They are also currently taking water from beneath the water table, water that will never be replaced due to increasing demand, irreversible damage is happening as we chow down on their produce without a thought.
Tankering water in and a ban in some areas on drinking tap water due to excessive nitrates and pesticides in the water is happening right now.

This is just one example. Anyone read recently about the sharp increase in bear attacks in Japan? Or the Amazon being at an irreversible tipping point due to deforestation?

So I guess the thing I find unacceptable is lashing out at people like Greta who’s just a kid and already has more (horrible) life experience than the majority of people.
The people who want to do something are being demonised and vilified over and above the ones responsible for the problem. I find that distasteful.

To an extent a lot of that attitude is on consumers, ones that likes to eat chocolate, avocados or coffee without a thought who accept a narrative it’s the likes of Greta or anyone else that dares to mention environmental issues being the problem.
Personally I welcome a balanced conversation about possible solutions. Throwing our hands up in the air like it’s an unsolvable problem and the status quo should continue unquestioned is from my POV irresponsible.

As I said a few posts back I’d want to know the cost on the environment and humans involved in lab grown chocolate before I decided whether I wanted to eat it.
 
I agree completely that by and large we have the mortality we can afford. There are mouths to feed and personally I don’t see any blame attached to the people clearing land to grow cash crops. What choice do they have?
But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening and happening at an alarming rate. Approximately 10 million hectares of deforestation every year.

I look at what’s happening in Spain (who produce over 4 billion quids worth of food for the UK and over £65 billion quids worth for export worldwide) and it’s clear it is unsustainable.
They don’t have the water available for these crops. The current rate of desertification of 1,500 square kilometers per year and the production of thirsty crops is fast leading them into a crisis. Approximately 75% of their land is at risk.

Wonder why lettuce in the UK has caused fatal e coli outbreaks? Well what sort of water do you think farmers are driven to using? Water there is now an expensive black market commodity.

They are also currently taking water from beneath the water table, water that will never be replaced due to increasing demand, irreversible damage is happening as we chow down on their produce without a thought.
Tankering water in and a ban in some areas on drinking tap water due to excessive nitrates and pesticides in the water is happening right now.

This is just one example. Anyone read recently about the sharp increase in bear attacks in Japan? Or the Amazon being at an irreversible tipping point due to deforestation?

So I guess the thing I find unacceptable is lashing out at people like Greta who’s just a kid and already has more (horrible) life experience than the majority of people.
The people who want to do something are being demonised and vilified over and above the ones responsible for the problem. I find that distasteful.

To an extent a lot of that attitude is on consumers, ones that likes to eat chocolate, avocados or coffee without a thought who accept a narrative it’s the likes of Greta or anyone else that dares to mention environmental issues being the problem.
Personally I welcome a balanced conversation about possible solutions. Throwing our hands up in the air like it’s an unsolvable problem and the status quo should continue unquestioned is from my POV irresponsible.

As I said a few posts back I’d want to know the cost on the environment and humans involved in lab grown chocolate before I decided whether I wanted to eat it.

Using it up...
 
Personally I welcome a balanced conversation about possible solutions. Throwing our hands up in the air like it’s an unsolvable problem and the status quo should continue unquestioned is from my POV irresponsible.

I don't think anyone here is saying that the status quo should continue. I believe that most here recognise there are serious issues facing the future of this planet. And those issues are not only environmental, of course. But the issues are immensely complex and its difficult for any of us to offer truely viable solutions. That includes Greta Thunberg. What may seem a solution for one group of people can mean the end of livelihoods for another group. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.

I was interested in your information about the water situation in Spain. I didn't know that. And I can't begin to think of a way in which it could be solved.
 
I’m talking in a wider sense about the status quo continuing not the microcosm that is this forum.
I tire of folks bashing anyone who wants to do something, whether that’s Greta or anyone else. She’s just a girl with a disability and something to say and yet she gets more stick than Nestlé.

It’s the lack of trying, the acceptance that this is the way it is and anyone whether a Guardian journo or a revered campaigner is a just a whiner that rankles. The easily sold narrative that the people pointing out theres a problem are the problem 🙄

Yer Spain isn’t the only country in this state, although it’s one of the worse.
It’s one of the reasons I’m not going to move there and am looking at the Isle of Man instead. I probably should be looking much further up in the northern hemisphere.
Not for my sake, I’m sure some sort of dodgy cobbled together agreement will keep the UK flourishing for my lifetime but it’s the crap we’re leaving behind for others to inherit I’m not liking.
 
It’s the lack of trying, the acceptance that this is the way it is and anyone whether a Guardian journo or a revered campaigner is a just a whiner that rankles. The easily sold narrative that the people pointing out theres a problem are the problem 🙄

Yes. You have made this point clearly several times now, and personally I agree with you. There is an increasing polarisation of views which is becoming devisive and very negative in the UK. I think the same is true in other countries. This is not particularly to do with climate change but many other issues too. Its very destructive.

We are straying off topic into wider political issues.

This thread is about chocolate.

Here is a simple question. Should chocolate be regarded as a luxury Item?
 
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Here is a simple question. Should chocolate be regarded as a luxury Item?

Hmm, looking up the definition of luxury items I couldn't find one defining food products. I know they exist, think caviar or those ridiculous 50 year old bourbons... I think that since chocolate is readily available it wouldn't fall in that box. It could reach a point though where real chocolate becomes that and the masses get the "fake" stuff. Me, I don't care if it's made from soy beans as long as it tastes like chocolate and is priced appropriately per it's ingredients and not its label.
 
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