Restaurants and vegan options

[karadekoolaid]

If I can be frank, personally, I have come to hate mods and special requests.

Just an anecdote. I was doing 3-4 Cooking Courses a month back in 2017 - 2018, about 15-20 people at a time. At an Indian Food course, one of the participants spoke out " I'm Jewish". So I said, "right, my knowledge of Kosher cuisine is round about zero, so anything you don't want to eat, that's fine"
10 minutes later, as I was making some chapattis " Oh, I'm alergic to gluten!" Sorry missus - there are 10 different dishes, so just avoid the bread.As I grabbed a handful of chiles and dissected them to explain why and how they burn, how to taste them, etc., she piped up again:
"OHHH! I can't eat anything spicy!"
I'm glad I took a deep breath before I answered because the first thing that came into my head was " Well why the f*** are you here then???" but I actually said something like " Indian food is spicy, hot, piquant and has a lot of very different combinations to Western food. That's the way it is. Once I give you the recipes, you're welcome to change any ingredients you like".
Diplomat for a day. Then the damn woman ate everything I'd cooked

 

[JAS_OH1]

Your muscle memory is trained since months or perhaps longer to always repeat the exact same way how to prepare the dish and then there're customers who want you to change something and still be as fast as if you would prepare the dish regularly.

That's probably true about most customers, the time thing. I'm a patient person and rarely in a hurry. I even eat my food slower than most people. That might annoy some servers, until they get the tip.

 

[SatNavSaysStraightOn]

Vegetarian restaurants are inevitably awful.

Perhaps that's just your corner of the world.

I have travelled to many countries and many, many vegetarian restaurants and can't think of any that have been bad.

 

[JAS_OH1]

Just an anecdote. I was doing 3-4 Cooking Courses a month back in 2017 - 2018, about 15-20 people at a time. At an Indian Food course, one of the participants spoke out " I'm Jewish". So I said, "right, my knowledge of Kosher cuisine is round about zero, so anything you don't want to eat, that's fine"
10 minutes later, as I was making some chapattis " Oh, I'm alergic to gluten!" Sorry missus - there are 10 different dishes, so just avoid the bread.As I grabbed a handful of chiles and dissected them to explain why and how they burn, how to taste them, etc., she piped up again:
"OHHH! I can't eat anything spicy!"
I'm glad I took a deep breath before I answered because the first thing that came into my head was " Well why the f*** are you here then???" but I actually said something like " Indian food is spicy, hot, piquant and has a lot of very different combinations to Western food. That's the way it is. Once I give you the recipes, you're welcome to change any ingredients you like".
Diplomat for a day. Then the damn woman ate everything I'd cooked

Here I was thinking it was 3 different people! That's really hilarious

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

I disagree with only the catering for the majority school of thought simply because everyone knows someone who is vegan or flexitarian or coeliac or dairy intolerant or carries adrenaline pens for food allergies and they are all related to others who you also lose out on the business of because one member can't eat there.

So just as an example I'm a coeliac, this translates in practical every day terms into none of my family ever ordering from the majority of takeaway outlets or if we are out together (and lets face it most people don't eat out solo) we don't go to places that can't tell me confidently what has gluten in it - so they don't just lose that individuals money they lose the whole groups.

When it comes to larger group events I get asked if I'm happy to eat at a certain place before the booking is made, if I look at the place and am not confident I will say no and that business is oblivious to having lost a 20 plus person booking due to it's shaky looking menu or website content.

Veganism has quadrupled in the UK in just five years, it's not a trend that shows any signs of slowing and young people are the largest demographic. Running a restaurant that only caters for older people's way of eating is not sustainable in the long term. It might be working now because thats the demographic with the largest amount of disposable income but people vote with their feet and restauranteurs will be clueless as to why foot falls dropping as they book to accommodate their vegan mate or Aunty SSSOAP's coeliacs disease.

It's short sighted not to have dishes on a menu for the smaller sections of society simply because it's not just their business you're missing out on. In my experience it's a general warning sign of a low quality establishment to not know what ingredients are in their foods or have a grip on what they can or can't safely serve their customers. It is after all literally their job to know this stuff.

IMO it's not difficult to produce amazing cheap vegan dishes everyone can enjoy or to have a list of ingredients for your clientele to check over. A lot establishments manage this with ease so it can't be that hard, oddly it's always the more successful establishments that are good at accommodating dietary requirements so that tells you something.

I do appreciate that when working at speed with low margins being able to produce dishes on autopilot is crucial but that's why menu's have the easy ones like veganisn, gluten free, dairy free already worked into them.

edit - yes I have worked in a kitchen, two- one pub and one cafe and most of the time not adjusting a dish was far more to do with the chefs poor attitude towards customers than with it causing difficulty. And wow two of the chefs I worked for really did hate their customers

 

[The OMWC]

Perhaps that's just your corner of the world.

I have travelled to many countries and many, many vegetarian restaurants and can't think of any that have been bad.

I haven't been to Oz or NZ yet, so can't comment, but among others, I've dined at the two most highly reputed vegetarian restaurants in the US (Greens and Moosewood). Both were OK, but nothing special. Mostly, what I find here is bland and clumsy, and even moreso in Europe.

 

[The OMWC]

Here's a local place where there's always great vegetarian options and is a model for the way we try to design our menu to accommodate carnivores and vegetarians/vegans alike. I am somewhat prejudiced because they do very much the style of cooking I like to do for myself and friends.

 

[Morning Glory]

Veganism has quadrupled in the UK in just five years, it's not a trend that shows any signs of slowing and young people are the largest demographic. Running a restaurant that only caters for older people's way of eating is not sustainable in the long term. It might be working now because thats the demographic with the largest amount of disposable income but people vote with their feet and restauranteurs will be clueless as to why foot falls dropping as they book to accommodate their vegan mate or Aunty SSSOAP's coeliacs disease.

I absolutely agree. Wetherspoons (a UK real ale pub chain) is one of the cheapest places to eat in the UK and its really not bad at all. Their menu has so many vegetarian meals I gave up counting and there are lots of vegan options too. Wetherspoons is frequented by old and young (all ages in fact, including kids) and is very popular - they cover a large demographic. Sorry the link to menu is a download.

Food at Wetherspoon - Breakfast, Deli Deals, Lunch & MoreJ D Wetherspoonhttps://www.jdwetherspoon.com › food

Screenshots - the green V means vegetarian, the green leaf indicates vegan - not sure if this is readable.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

I absolutely agree. Wetherspoons (a UK real ale pub chain) is one of the cheapest places to eat in the UK and its really not bad at all. Their menu has so many vegetarian meals I gave up counting and there are lots of vegan options too. Wetherspoons is frequented by old and young (all ages in fact, including kids) and is very popular - they cover a large demographic. Sorry the link to menu is a download.

Food at Wetherspoon - Breakfast, Deli Deals, Lunch & MoreJ D Wetherspoonhttps://www.jdwetherspoon.com › food

Screenshots - the green V means vegetarian, the green leaf indicates vegan - not sure if this is readable.

View attachment 101667

View attachment 101668

I went into a Greene King (a UK chain pub) for the first time last year. I was blown away by how many groups were catered for on their main menu. They even have gluten free beers (yes plural) to choose from- amazing!
As someone who has lost weeks to restaurants giving me a gluten poisoning one of the things that I've found very reassuring is the type of menu you've posted. They understand that margins are tight, they don't pay the best wages and can't expect the staff to have a degrees worth of food knowledge so they provide a menu with everything laid out clearly for everyone and they don't deviate.

It used to be low end places that were dangerous for me to eat in, now they are the safest and the riskiest ones are the higher end scale because the staff arrogantly think they understand everything and don't check.

Last year I went to the Ivy in Bristol and the snotty waiter said they didn't have a gluten free marked menu and he didn't need to speak to the chef as he knew what was gluten free. He told me the sausage dish was fine and got really arsey with me for saying are you sure sausages usually contain wheat, telling me "they're just sausages"

I made him go check... you can guess the answer. So I had to order the safest option which is steak and a salad with no dressing. It's amazing how tired you can get of steak, dry salad and bad service when you're paying a premium for a good experience. Same in Harvey Nicholls in Bristol, no need for a gluten free marked menu "their chef is very accomplished"
Out comes my lamb sitting in a pearl barely broth...

It went back to the kitchen but I think they just rinsed the meat off because it looked identical, afterwards I didn't make it ten minutes down the road before I was violently ill. The public toilets I used are closed now (they were truly awful, like the toilets in the pub in Trainspotting ), if it happened now I literally would be having a violent reaction in full public view!

If you're not confident in a places ability you really can't enjoy eating there and those types of menus really do put your mind at rest. I still ask them to double check with the chef it's definitely gluten free though!

I find stating that I'm a coeliac but not a fussy eater, I'll eat anything so long as they can tell me it's definitely gluten free seems to get the right response.
They are sick of people using diet to make themselves special. For example saying they can't have any dairy and ordering ice cream for pud. Those types make life difficult for everyone and patience wears thin!

 

[caseydog]

I absolutely agree. Wetherspoons (a UK real ale pub chain) is one of the cheapest places to eat in the UK and its really not bad at all. Their menu has so many vegetarian meals I gave up counting and there are lots of vegan options too. Wetherspoons is frequented by old and young (all ages in fact, including kids) and is very popular - they cover a large demographic. Sorry the link to menu is a download.

Food at Wetherspoon - Breakfast, Deli Deals, Lunch & MoreJ D Wetherspoonhttps://www.jdwetherspoon.com › food

Screenshots - the green V means vegetarian, the green leaf indicates vegan - not sure if this is readable.

View attachment 101667

View attachment 101668

When you have a 200 item menu, there is room for dishes that please everyone. If you are a fine dining restaurant, your menu may be three appetizers, five entrees, and a few desserts. The menu will probably change according to available high quality ingredients.

Plus, there is a difference between having pre-planned vegan/vegetarian menu items, and having someone want you to make something special just for them. First, you have to have the right ingredients, and then a recipe to prepare it.

I know one vegan, SatNav, and two people with celiac disease, SSOAP and one of my cousins. The pitfall in cooking gluten free is that gluten can be in ingredients that you expect to be gluten free. The pitfall for vegan cooking is that there are so many rules you have to know and be prepared for.

As for groups. If I am going out with 20 people, and one vegan in the group objects to all the places the rest of us like, I will just politely bow out.

CD

 

[Morning Glory]

The pitfall for vegan cooking is that there are so many rules you have to know and be prepared for.

I think that is a bit of a myth, There is only one rule really - nothing which has ingredients from (or produced by) an animal.

Vegetarian is much easier to cater for though as there are many examples of meals which a lot of people eat (in the UK but also to some extent in the US) which happen to be vegetarian.

 

[Morning Glory]

At the other end of the scale from the mass catering of Wetherspoon's, Gordon Ramsay's 3 star Michelin restaurant in London has a vegetarian menu. In fact, I think in a high end restaurant which offers a limited menu of superb quality food, then a vegetarian menu is easily accommodated.

Menus

 

[caseydog]

I think that is a bit of a myth, There is only one rule really - nothing which has ingredients from (or produced by) an animal.

Vegetarian is much easier to cater for though as there are many examples of meals which a lot of people eat (in the UK but also to some extent in the US) which happen to be vegetarian.

It depends on how vegan the vegan is. Some vegans won't eat anything cooked in a pan also used to cook meat. Others don't care. There was a class action lawsuit in the US by a group of vegans against Burger King, because they found out after eating a BK Impossible Whopper (plant based burger) that it was cooked on the same griddle as meat burgers. The trial judge dismissed the case, rightly in my opinion. Other opinions may vary.

I guess, bottom line, if I don't like what's on a restaurant's menu, I don't eat there. I don't feel I am "entitled" to a meal that isn't on the menu. And, if I owned a restaurant, and somebody wanted me to cook a vegan meal when I don't have any vegan meals on the menu, I would POLITELY say, "no," even if they call in advance.

Where Chef Mountain messed up is that someone at his restaurant said they would do a special vegan meal, and it didn't get done. Mistake number two was being a jerk about it.

CD

 

[caseydog]

...then a vegetarian menu is easily accommodated.

My only experience with a Gordon Ramsey dining was eating some really nasty fish and chips at his pub in Caesar's Palace. I think they mopped up the kitchen floor with the fish.

But, to your point, it CAN be accommodated, but is it required?

CD

 

[Herbaceous]

Perhaps that's just your corner of the world.

I have travelled to many countries and many, many vegetarian restaurants and can't think of any that have been bad.

This has been my experience as well, although I don’t travel much, I’ve been to a few different vegetarian and vegan restaurants over the years, and they’ve all been quite good. I still dream about vegan “fish” tacos I had at one place (they were made from hearts of palm). There’s also a raw vegan place in my town - the food there was always delicious as well, although I only ever wanted to go in summer (in winter, I want my food to be hot!).

A couple years ago I went to visit a friend in a different city. That friend is vegetarian, and I decided that I’d go vegetarian for the week as well (environmental reasons). I managed just fine for the week and didn’t find myself missing meat at all, but one thing I did notice was how much it limited menus. We’d go to a restaurant (and we ate out for pretty much every meal), and the number of options I could eat would be quite small at some places.

Funny enough, my friend was the one who did end up eating meat at one meal - he’s vegetarian for environmental reasons, and when the restaurant screwed up his order and accidentally put meat in, he went ahead and ate it anyway, since wasting food is worse for the environment than eating meat.