School systems

[JAS_OH1]

Mod.edit: posts moved to new topic (MG)

I was going to enter our English here, probably best known as colonial English
Written like English, but with local slang mixed in.

But my standard confusion has always been schools
Public schools are not for the public and private schools are not private.
And then there are grammar schools.
Varsity, university and college
O levels, A levels, matric and high school

Hmmm. Over in the US public schools are the free schools attended by most of the population and private schools in general are funded by families (and sometimes through grants) and not just anyone gets to attend. Grammar school is not something I know of, I think that's a UK thing? Most people in the US refer to university as college, and it's close to the same thing. Varsity? Here that's a high school team sport term where there is junior varsity (the younger athletes) and varsity (usually grades 11-12). No idea what O levels, A levels, or matric is, but here high school refers to grades 9-12 just before the student goes off to college.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

I was going to enter our English here, probably best known as colonial English
Written like English, but with local slang mixed in.

But my standard confusion has always been schools
Public schools are not for the public and private schools are not private.
And then there are grammar schools.
Varsity, university and college
O levels, A levels, matric and high school

I can help you out on the British schools system. But it’s not straightforward-

A state school is a free school.

The grammar schools of old were also a free school. But to get into a grammar school you had to pass a test and they took the top 25% of children leaving the rest in a cesspool called a secondary modern.
This system was abandoned in in the 60’s and 70’s as deciding a childs fate age 11 seems a tad wrong to say the least.
It also created horrendous class snobbery about who got into a grammar school and who didn’t.
Well we are class obsessed Brits so what do you expect

However a certain political party who adores exclusion wanted to bring them back and in 2016 relabelled some of 160 selective schools funded by the state as grammar schools. Today about 5% of children attend a free grammar school.

A public school is a fee paying school.
A private school is also a fee paying school.

The difference is public school’s are register as charity’s and as such cannot make a profit.
This also makes them tax except but means they must plough 100% of the fees back into the school.
This obviously provides some protection in the quality of the services they can provide.
Where as a private school can make a profit. These are usually not good schools, they aim to keep the most money out of the fees they can, it’s a business and profit is king.

And now the complicated part -
Because American free schools are called public schools people got confused about whether a public school was a private school or not.
The schools didn’t like the idea they were perceived as free so slowly the UK started calling public schools private school too. Now even the teachers don’t know the difference!

Our current Prime Minister will be ending their the tax relief at the beginning of 2025 so effectively all fee paying schools from next year will be eligible for VAT (value added tax).
Will they bother to maintain their time consuming charitable status after that or will they left it slide and start making profits out of the fees?
Hmm impossible to say business don’t have a record of being greedy at all

 

[Morning Glory]

This system was abandoned in in the 60’s and 70’s as deciding a childs fate age 11 seems a tad wrong to say the least.

Not in this part of the UK. We still have Grammar schools here.

I am sure that predates 2016 because I moved here in early 2000's and my kids had to go to the non Grammar schools here.

I mean that they couldn't go to the grammar schools here.

Off topic...

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

Not in this part of the UK. We still have Grammar schools here.

I am sure that predates 2016 because I moved here in early 2000's and my kids had to go to the non Grammar schools here.

I mean that they couldn't go to the grammar schools here.

Off topic...

‘Selective schools’ always remained and a tiny minority refused to stop calling themselves grammar schools but the 11 plus and the grammar school/secondary modern system as it was known comprehensively ended.

The government reintroduction of grammar schools in the UK happened after 2016

 

[karadekoolaid]

It also created horrendous class snobbery about who got into a grammar school and who didn’t.
Well we are class obsessed Brits so what do you expect

Totally disagree there. Grammar schools gave the brighter students the chance to move along faster, and to really compete. Class snobbery it was not, at least in my village. There were at least a dozen of us in my village who were very working class, brought up in council houses, who would never have made it to Oxbridge if it hadn't been for Grammar schools.
I might also add that class obsession is an international thing; not just British.

 

[CookieMonster]

Totally disagree there.

uhmmm, happened also in Germany.
students took tests at a pretty early stage - and were thenceforth doomed to "trade school" or "academic progression"
a bit later test scores were used to separate "high school graduates" from "university material"
there were no options, there was no disputing . . . a test is a test . . .

if your scores did not make the cut, there was absolutely no way you could progress into 'higher academics'
if you were a late bloomer, you stayed in the late bloomer group, for the rest of your life.

"Gymnasium" was college prep - no possible way to attend "Uni" without a stellar Gymnasium performance.
no possible way to a post graduate degree (i.e. PhD aka "Herr Doktor") without a university level professor giving their "sponsorship"

one can blithely insist such is not a "class" sortation - but in reality, it is. it was a severely 'closed loop' system.

we lived/rented in a small village, our neighbor was an employee of my same company. he knew what/who I was 'at the company' . . .
one day I knocked on his door with an 'emergency' medical request of 'how/what do I do?' - dear daughter @ 3 yrs had sliced a nice gash in her finger . . . not that this was 'immediately' obvious . . . his wife was absolutely petrified at "having" to deal /with interact with someone she perceived as 'above her station.' I was equally horrified - this is nothing any American would expect.

anyway , , , sometime in the 1990s these rigid 'educational' barriers became relaxed, one could contest your kid's 6th grade "scores" so as to hopefully progress in the educational 'chain of smartness'

 

[Morning Glory]

Totally disagree there. Grammar schools gave the brighter students the chance to move along faster, and to really compete. Class snobbery it was not, at least in my village. There were at least a dozen of us in my village who were very working class, brought up in council houses, who would never have made it to Oxbridge if it hadn't been for Grammar schools.
I might also add that class obsession is an international thing; not just British.

We will have to agree to differ. I was fortunate enough to go to a Grammar school. But lots of my generation weren't. My partner for example failed the 11 plus. If anything I'd say he is far brighter than me and I have an MA. He has dementia now so it is all lost. But, for example, he was far better read than me. Amongst other things he could complete the Times, Telegraph or Guardian cryptic crosswords in record time which is no mean feat. He worked in low paid jobs all his life starting at age 15. If he had gone to a Grammar school things would have been very different for him And he is not an isolated case.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

Totally disagree there. Grammar schools gave the brighter students the chance to move along faster, and to really compete. Class snobbery it was not, at least in my village. There were at least a dozen of us in my village who were very working class, brought up in council houses, who would never have made it to Oxbridge if it hadn't been for Grammar schools.
I might also add that class obsession is an international thing; not just British.

Perhaps written from the perspective of one of the 25% who benefitted rather than an 11 year old who was left behind.

Fortunately the replacement system meant everyone had a chance of going to a good university regardless of how they performed up to the age of 11

The snobbery part we’ll just have to agree to disagree on, my mother in law is 77 and still occasionally bangs on about the fact she went to grammar school don’t you know

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

On a separate note about schools systems one of the reasons I do not like private schooling is the hugely unfair advantage some children have due to nothing other than accident of birth… and yet I sent my children to public (now often known as private) school because I wasn’t going to sacrifice their future for my principles

One of the arguments against public/private school is that the successful, forthright parents who can afford the enormous advantages of that type of education will not put up with poor standards, and if these people’s children went to a state (free) school they would drive up standards there.

Personally I thought that was a flimsy premise for the abolition of privilege.
But as I said I sent my children to one of those schools and boy it’s so true!

They are by the very virtue of their position mostly strong, vocal and demanding/commanding people.
There’s absolutely no way these powerful and influential people would tolerate the lower standards of a state (free) school. The alpha mummies and daddies defend their offspring with a fierceness that means state schools would be pulled up by their presence. They don’t feel they have to accept “their lot” they will insist on things being done better.

I would prefer a system that was a level playing field and yes I acknowledge life isn’t fair but it is as fair as we want it to be, as fair as we make it, as fair as everyone is prepared to strive to make it.
For that reason I do not like systems that see the innocent disadvantaged before they’ve even left the starting blocks.

It’s an interesting topic I think!

 

[Morning Glory]

On a separate note about schools systems one of the reasons I do not like private schooling is the hugely unfair advantage some children have due to nothing other than accident of birth… and yet I sent my children to public (now often known as private) school because I wasn’t going to sacrifice their future for my principles

I would never have done that (not that I could possibly have afforded to anyway). Its just the way I am. I declined the private heath care in my last job which was offered as part of the employment package. I'm a dyed in the wool lefty!

I should add that I agree with karadekoolaid with respect to Grammar schools offering working class kids the opportunity to go to University. I am one if them. I was brought up on a council estate and was one if the poorest kids in my school. Although in fact, ironically, I got expelled from the school just before 'A' levels and went to a technical college to do them - which was excellent as it happened.

However, the Grammar school system, whilst offering a better education for some working class kids was devisive. Entering was based on one rather short exam which tested specific abilities. If you had a bad day and failed it your whole future changed.

 

[karadekoolaid]

They are by the very virtue of their position mostly strong, vocal and demanding/commanding people.
There’s absolutely no way these powerful and influential people would tolerate the lower standards of a state (free) school. The alpha mummies and daddies defend their offspring with a fierceness that means state schools would be pulled up by their presence. They don’t feel they have to accept “their lot” they will insist on things being done better.

It's Darwin's theory. The survival of the fittest and the need for people to compete and be better than others at all times. The level playing field stuff doesn't allow for that. Life is a huge competition and if you're not prepared to at least try to get to the top, then you just stay where you are. Imagine what the business world would be like if everyone was content with a level playing field. Listen to Lord Sugar talking about level playing fields, or Richard Branson, or David Beckham, or Gordon Ramsay or Marco Pierre White.
All this ridiculous Gen - Z stuff about everyone getting a fair chance and everyone getting a prize so their precious feelings are not hurt simply will not prepare them for life at all, because out there, it's kill, or be killed.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

I would never have done that (not that I could possibly have afforded to anyway). Its just the way I am. I declined the private heath care in my last job which was offered as part of the employment package. I'm a dyed in the wool lefty!

I’ve had a life of many parts and while I went to the local school I mixed with some incredibly wealthy and all ‘privately’ educated people.
Their advantage was blindingly obvious. They were very confident and knew the world was open to them.
If they wanted to do something, be something, go somewhere they either knew someone who could help make it happen or they had the confidence to find the help to make it so themselves.

The treatment of children by the two tiers of the system I experienced were so stark there was no way I was going to show my children the cheap seats if I had a choice to show them how to enjoy the good ones.
Even if that involved engaging in something that made me feel more than a bit morally queasy.

But my boys were always the priority, life wasn’t going to change just because I made a point of by sending them to state school.

The way I see it, they have to abolish private schools and make all schools free for everyone.
Perhaps then the enormous percentage of privately educated people who rule over us might have some genuine understanding of other walks of life and the job that really needs to be done.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

It's Darwin's theory. The survival of the fittest and the need for people to compete and be better than others at all times. The level playing field stuff doesn't allow for that. Life is a huge competition and if you're not prepared to at least try to get to the top, then you just stay where you are. Imagine what the business world would be like if everyone was content with a level playing field!

The corporate world you were part of, couldn’t stand anymore and left?
We don’t have to aim for the lowest rung, or be ruled over by psychos.
Unless you think we’re all utterly powerless and at the mercy of forces beyond our control?

And it’s not content with the level playing field it’s STARTING on a level playing field. Big difference.
No-one want’s to run the 100 metres when they see some for no good reason been given a 50 metre head start.

 

[Morning Glory]

uhmmm, happened also in Germany.
students took tests at a pretty early stage - and were thenceforth doomed to "trade school" or "academic progression"
a bit later test scores were used to separate "high school graduates" from "university material"
there were no options, there was no disputing . . . a test is a test . . .

if your scores did not make the cut, there was absolutely no way you could progress into 'higher academics'
if you were a late bloomer, you stayed in the late bloomer group, for the rest of your life.

"Gymnasium" was college prep - no possible way to attend "Uni" without a stellar Gymnasium performance.
no possible way to a post graduate degree (i.e. PhD aka "Herr Doktor") without a university level professor giving their "sponsorship"

one can blithely insist such is not a "class" sortation - but in reality, it is. it was a severely 'closed loop' system.

we lived/rented in a small village, our neighbor was an employee of my same company. he knew what/who I was 'at the company' . . .
one day I knocked on his door with an 'emergency' medical request of 'how/what do I do?' - dear daughter @ 3 yrs had sliced a nice gash in her finger . . . not that this was 'immediately' obvious . . . his wife was absolutely petrified at "having" to deal /with interact with someone she perceived as 'above her station.' I was equally horrified - this is nothing any American would expect.

anyway , , , sometime in the 1990s these rigid 'educational' barriers became relaxed, one could contest your kid's 6th grade "scores" so as to hopefully progress in the educational 'chain of smartness'

Fascinating. I didn't know that about the German system.

 

[CookieMonster]

thankfully, the system has changed.

there's a lot of USA talk about "free college" - why can't USA do free college like some many other countries . . . ?
what people do not realize.... the government of "free college" is the "accepting authority" - not the college/university.
one "applies" - and many are rejected. in Germany you apply and state what field of study you wish to pursue.
if accepted "the government" will tell you which university you may attend, and when you may start.

I've seen plenty of German kids 'sent to college' in USA because they were not accepted into the German system.
in USA there are colleges that accept students with non-stellar credentials . . . community colleges, lower rated schools, etc etc. it is a totally different system.

and I doubt very much the European free college concept would fly in USA - #1, there are not enough lawyers to represent all the students that got rejected and want legal action to get them "accepted" . . .

 

[Morning Glory]

But my boys were always the priority, life wasn’t going to change just because I made a point of by sending them to state school.

I do understand.

It's Darwin's theory. The survival of the fittest and the need for people to compete and be better than others at all times.

Hmmm... problem is that Darwin's theory may well be the case with wild animals but hopefully not the case with humans. If it was, we wouldn't treat diseases but simply let people survive or die. We wouldn't provide disabled kids with educational opportunities. And so on and so forth.

What we are discussing is whether providing all kids with a good eduction should be the norm. Deciding a kids future on the basis of one exam (as in the case of Grammar schools) is surely not fair?