Vehicles

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

My brother is a driving instructor in Crewe. He only teaches in automatics now. There are quite a few driving instructors in his area who only teach in automatics. He is busy enough to choose who he teaches.

He was a motorbike courier for a long time.

I’m saddened to hear that, I’m all for learning the old ways of doing things even if they are superseded by better ways.

Not sure him riding a bikes relevant as I’d guess he original took a full manual licence and also took his motorcycle test long ago.

 

[MrsDangermouse]

My brother is a driving instructor in Crewe. He only teaches in automatics now. There are quite a few driving instructors in his area who only teach in automatics. He is busy enough to choose who he teaches.

Yes I think there's a huge shift towards automatics in the UK, especially with the rise in EVs. I can understand learners choosing to learn in an auto - its much easier. Though if I remember from when I learned to drive, it wasn't the gears that worried most of my friends, it was roundabouts (never really understood the difficulty myself though).

So you've got a separate license for manual and automatic? Sounds like another way for MV dept. to make more money.

Its not a money thing - there's no difference in cost for the standard car licence whether its a full one or auto only. You have one licence and it has various categories on it which allow you to drive certain classes of vehicles, but it does cost more to add extra categories later as you'll have to learn and take a separate test.

I was very lucky that I passed my test when I did....a few months after I passed they removed the automatic entitlement to the C1 category from the standard licence. So I can drive vehicles upto 7.5t, but someone who passed their test after January 1997 can only drive upto 3.5t. Its a real problem in the motorhome community because a lot of the manufacturers try to build their motorhomes within the 3.5t limit to maximise their markets, but that means the vehicles have virtually no payload, and many people overload them.

 

[SatNavSaysStraightOn]

Not sure him riding a bikes relevant as I’d guess he original took a full manual licence and also took his motorcycle test long ago.

Oops, I got cut short.

He used to teach motorcycle learners as well. Since his stroke he hasn't been able to ride at all mostly because he can't get his bike off the kickstand anymore.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

Oops, I got cut short.

He used to teach motorcycle learners as well. Since his stroke he hasn't been able to ride at all mostly because he can't get his bike off the kickstand anymore.

I remember you saying that. That’s sad. Everyone has to give it up at some point though, I suppose in some ways it’s better to give it up while you can still cultivate other hobbies. I’m not looking forward to having to stop one bit!

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

Yes I think there's a huge shift towards automatics in the UK, especially with the rise in EVs. I can understand learners choosing to learn in an auto - its much easier. Though if I remember from when I learned to drive, it wasn't the gears that worried most of my friends, it was roundabouts (never really understood the difficulty myself though).


Its not a money thing - there's no difference in cost for the standard car licence whether its a full one or auto only. You have one licence and it has various categories on it which allow you to drive certain classes of vehicles, but it does cost more to add extra categories later as you'll have to learn and take a separate test.

I was very lucky that I passed my test when I did....a few months after I passed they removed the automatic entitlement to the C1 category from the standard licence. So I can drive vehicles upto 7.5t, but someone who passed their test after January 1997 can only drive upto 3.5t. Its a real problem in the motorhome community because a lot of the manufacturers try to build their motorhomes within the 3.5t limit to maximise their markets, but that means the vehicles have virtually no payload, and many people overload them.

They’re aren’t going to be the only area that will suffer from licence changes.
Getting part of a license will have ranging consequences.
Almost all heavy vehicles are manual as are all our works vehicles. That heavy duty stuff goes on for decades, we have vehicles that are still in use that are 40+ years old and still going strong.

There’s a large school of thought that believes hydrogen vechicles are the way forward, not least because we can’t actually supply the electricity needed for everyone to go electric. I’m told Nordic countries already understand this and have policy embracing it.
I listened to some poor scientist in front of a select committee in the UK trying to explain why the electric vehicle maths doesn’t add up to politicians who unsurprisingly couldn’t get it
Anyway the upshot is it’s far more environmentally friendly to produce a neutral fuel and convert existing cars rather than waste what we have by piling up redundant cars and dead batteries in land fill.

I think it’s a Norway factory thats producing hydrogen from sunlight. Don’t quote me on that though

I wouldn’t employ someone here with an automatic licence, they’d be useless, round here it would be like they didn’t have a licence at all!
If it was an employee that has a car supplied (sales etc) then I’m afraid the one who had a manual licence would get it because I wouldn’t want to stump up for a special vehicle for that one person.


I think apart from an articulated lorry and large passenger vehicles (coaches) my licence has everything ticked!
Bet your licence is like mine, hardly anything’s excluded, it includes large machinery like road rollers

 

[MrsDangermouse]

They’re aren’t going to be the only area that will suffer from licence changes.
Getting part of a license will have ranging consequences.
Almost all heavy vehicles are manual as are all our works vehicles. That heavy duty stuff goes on for decades, we have vehicles that are still in use that are 40+ years old and still going strong.

But anyone passing their test now won't be able to drive a heavy vehicle anyway unless they sit a separate test for their C1 or C licence - so I can understand them taking the easy option of a B Auto. Its not a decision I'd support, but I can see why many people choose it.

There’s a large school of thought that believes hydrogen vechicles are the way forward, not least because we can’t actually supply the electricity needed for everyone to go electric. I’m told Nordic countries already understand this and have policy embracing it.
I listened to some poor scientist in front of a select committee in the UK trying to explain why the electric vehicle maths doesn’t add up to politicians who unsurprisingly couldn’t get it
Anyway the upshot is it’s far more environmentally friendly to produce a neutral fuel and convert existing cars rather than waste what we have by piling up redundant cars and dead batteries in land fill.

I think it’s a Norway factory thats producing hydrogen from sunlight. Don’t quote me on that though

Whilst hydrogen has potential, we're not anywhere close yet. It costs far too much to produce, transport and store hydrogen, and it takes such humongous amounts of electricity to actually produce it that its just not economic or sensible from an environmental perspective (when EVs can use that electricity much more efficiently). I'm sure in time the scientists will find a way, and I expect we'll end up with a hybrid situation with mostly EVs for vans and cars, and hydrogen for heavier vehicles.

There's a common misconception that EV batteries end up in landfill - they're far too valuable for that. Firstly their lifespan is way longer than most people think it is: battery warranties are generally somewhere around the 8 year/100k miles mark, and even after that point they'll still have plenty of life left in them. And when batteries degrade it tends to be just a few of the cells, which can often be replaced thus extending their life. And finally, if the car is scrapped, then the battery will be recycled - for example domestic house batteries are often made from recycled EV batteries.

I wouldn’t employ someone here with an automatic licence, they’d be useless, round here it would be like they didn’t have a licence at all!
If it was an employee that has a car supplied (sales etc) then I’m afraid the one who had a manual licence would get it because I wouldn’t want to stump up for a special vehicle for that one person.

I think it really depends on the local situation/context, as many vehicle fleets are heading towards electric. But in general I totally agree that having the full licence is a far better idea, and certainly a lot more flexible.

I think apart from an articulated lorry and large passenger vehicles (coaches) my licence has everything ticked!
Bet your licence is like mine, hardly anything’s excluded, it includes large machinery like road rollers

Yep same....pretty much everything. Seen any road rollers for sale recently?

 

[Barriehie]

Riding a motorcycle when you’re very young is easy, later it’s not, and nowadays in this country you have to be 24 years old for a full motorcycle licence, by which time a lot of youngsters want or have a car and an expensive luxury like a motorcycle isn't on the cards. Here and the US the motorcycling community is an ageing one.

Not really a money making thing, a manual licence (aka full licence) costs the same as an automatic and manual is still the norm. There’s apparently been a big rise in the last few years but it still 81% of tests are for manual full licences which entitle you to drive both. I don’t see that high rate continuing though.

You can apply to do your test in just an automatic but will then be restricted to only driving automatics from that point so I don’t really get why you’d want to do that, apart from thinking it’ll save you money, which it may not because the test pass rates for an automatic licence is lower than a manual. Plus the vehicle cost after will be higher (no cheap to insure jalopy for you) and even care hire will cost you considerably more. It might be the way forward but it’s currently a short sighted choice if you’re trying to save moola.

And why would you want to restrict yourself if you don’t have to?
Over 70% of the vehicles on the road here are manual. That means a vast pool of affordable vehicles won’t be available to precisely the age group that needs them most. And no classic cars for that cohort.
Why miss out on the joys of a manual when you’re young?
Save the automatic for older more tired years or the horror of having to commute in rush hour traffic.

When I wanted to do my motorcycle test I went to school nearby who looked me up and down and told me I’d be doing a restricted A2 licence. Meaning I would never ride a powerful bike unless I did another test later.

I was insulted, it’s not the first time I’ve been offered the restricted option on something or dismissed because I’m a small female but this was another woman who was doing it!
Anyway I ignored her and went elsewhere, it wasn’t difficult to step up in power at all, it was in fact easier.
I love a powerful bike, I have one lower powered Goldy the rest are 1200 or over.
I’d never have known that joy if I’d listened to that instructor making ill informed decisions on my behalf and doing me down before I’d even got out of the gate.

But it often feels like there are a lot of people out there who want to make life small. Sod ‘em go for it, if someone else has done it the chances are you can too.

ps I’ve driven an automatic car for the last 10+ years and wouldn’t go back but I have to drive a manual when I drive my sons or dads car or I go away and want to hire a car because then often manuals are the only option left.
Imagine if you had a restricted licence, what a pita.

I just looked it up and less than 4% of the vehicles registered in the US are manual!!!

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

But anyone passing their test now won't be able to drive a heavy vehicle anyway unless they sit a separate test for their C1 or C licence - so I can understand them taking the easy option of a B Auto. Its not a decision I'd support, but I can see why many people choose it.

I was referring to heavy duty rather than a heavy goods vehicle (ie a lorry etc) they’re lots agricultural and construction vehicles you can still drive. Land rovers go on forever.
Although H&S does demand you have a days training (I use that term loosely) for some of them now.

Whilst hydrogen has potential, we're not anywhere close yet. It costs far too much to produce, transport and store hydrogen, and it takes such humongous amounts of electricity to actually produce it that its just not economic or sensible from an environmental perspective (when EVs can use that electricity much more efficiently). I'm sure in time the scientists will find a way, and I expect we'll end up with a hybrid situation with mostly EVs for vans and cars, and hydrogen for heavier vehicles.

Agreed we’re nowhere near it but a clean replacement will be within the lifetime of the people taking automatic tests now. I can totally understand why people would choose it I just think it’s shortsighted. I suppose I look at it from a business/employer perspective. We recently bought new vans and cars and EV wasn’t even in the same ball park as combustion and as I said I wouldn’t employ someone with a restricted licence anyway.

There’s a factory in Norway that uses purely solar energy to produce its hydrogen. Is it efficient, nope it’s expensive but innovation always is to start with.
The environmental impact of lithium mining isn’t a good thing.
Personally I think a mixed policy like Norway is pursuing is most likely.

There's a common misconception that EV batteries end up in landfill - they're far too valuable for that. Firstly their lifespan is way longer than most people think it is: battery warranties are generally somewhere around the 8 year/100k miles mark, and even after that point they'll still have plenty of life left in them. And when batteries degrade it tends to be just a few of the cells, which can often be replaced thus extending their life. And finally, if the car is scrapped, then the battery will be recycled - for example domestic house batteries are often made from recycled EV batteries.

Well that’s good to know.
But that is not my experience.
I have an EV Harley. It’s guaranteed for only 5 years. It’s 4 years old already losing capacity. That small loss is a pita.
When you ask how long it’s expected to last they shrug and say maybe eight, we don’t know.
The battery will have to be fully replaced at quite some cost.

Yep same....pretty much everything. Seen any road rollers for sale recently?

Well if you’re after one there’s one here we don’t use anymore

 

[karadekoolaid]

We've had both manual and automatic cars, and I'm in no doubt that I prefer manual. They may be a bit of a pain in heavy traffic, but they're far more flexible in a city like Caracas, where there are loads of hills, mountains, and bends. Plus you can bump start a manual car!

 

[Barriehie]

We've had both manual and automatic cars, and I'm in no doubt that I prefer manual. They may be a bit of a pain in heavy traffic, but they're far more flexible in a city like Caracas, where there are loads of hills, mountains, and bends. Plus you can bump start a manual car!

For sure on the bump start!

 

[Herbaceous]

My plans are coming unstuck.

My 4×4 which I haven't locked since well before Christmas, has decided that she isn't going to be locked again. She's got central locking which actually works, but right now both of the doors with locks won't accept the key. It goes in a few millimetres and then meets something solid. The passenger one rotates the entire lock and barrel in with the key and hangs on to the key until you coax it back to vertical. The drivers one just does nothing at all. The boot doesn't have an external lock, but does have an internal knob which is odd.

So I can still drive her. I just can't lock her... until she gets repaired.

We had something similar happen to my dad’s car several years ago - the key actually broke off in the driver’s side door lock (I was the one who did it - sorry Dad!).

We just left it like that, used the other key to start it, and didn’t leave anything valuable in there. The car was nearing the end of its useful life anyway, so it was unlikely someone was going to want to steal it (most vehicle thefts are here are of luxury cars, done by organized crime).

For the record, I’m in my 40s and never learned how to drive manual. Both my parents drove automatics and that’s what I learned on. Not having that skill hasn’t held me back in life any.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

I dunno, I think the automatics of today are a billion miles away from when they first started to become popular.

The kickdown mechanism in automatics are now so good they feel like a manual.
Essentially the car recognises the movement of the accelerator pedal and will drop you down a gear giving a burst of power the same as a manual. The systems they use now are far more sophisticated than the old automatics.

So on a hill for example it’s programmed to sense the change in speed, it can tell how fast and how far you’re pressing on the accelerator and react according to the millions of bits of data they’ve accumulated over the decades about how we drive.

The brilliant thing about them is a lot of them can be reconfigured to suit your style. Mapping is avaible for these nifty new gearboxes. But tbh mostly they’ve hit the spot from the off. Apart from Tesla, that needed adjusting, but it’s simple to do it yourself on a touch screen.

 

[SandwichShortOfAPicnic]

For the record, I’m in my 40s and never learned how to drive manual. Both my parents drove automatics and that’s what I learned on. Not having that skill hasn’t held me back in life any.

If you live in a country where everyone drives automatics I can’t see that it would.
But in a country where almost everything is manual it might.

 

[Herbaceous]

Whilst hydrogen has potential, we're not anywhere close yet. It costs far too much to produce, transport and store hydrogen, and it takes such humongous amounts of electricity to actually produce it that its just not economic or sensible from an environmental perspective (when EVs can use that electricity much more efficiently). I'm sure in time the scientists will find a way, and I expect we'll end up with a hybrid situation with mostly EVs for vans and cars, and hydrogen for heavier vehicles.

There's a common misconception that EV batteries end up in landfill - they're far too valuable for that. Firstly their lifespan is way longer than most people think it is: battery warranties are generally somewhere around the 8 year/100k miles mark, and even after that point they'll still have plenty of life left in them. And when batteries degrade it tends to be just a few of the cells, which can often be replaced thus extending their life. And finally, if the car is scrapped, then the battery will be recycled - for example domestic house batteries are often made from recycled EV batteries.

I actually worked (very briefly, just an internship) in the hydrogen industry many years ago. I admit I’m still a bit skeptical, as the industry has a long history of over-promising and under-delivering. Hydrogen vehicles have been “just a few years away” from widespread adoption for over a decade now. Part of the problem is public perception - hydrogen vehicles are quite safe, but most people associate hydrogen with either the Hindenburg, or nuclear bombs.

We ar currently in the process of decarbonizing our fleet at work (we have an unofficial policy that if a department wants to replace a vehicle, they have to buy an electric one). I’m actually managing that particular project, which has been pretty interesting since I’m not really a “car person”. So far everyone has been happy with the EVs we’ve gotten. I’m actually currently in the middle of buying 4 more, and our first electric pickup trucks (if procurement ever gives me the OK, but that’s another story…)

 

[MrsDangermouse]

There’s a factory in Norway that uses purely solar energy to produce its hydrogen. Is it efficient, nope it’s expensive but innovation always is to start with.
The environmental impact of lithium mining isn’t a good thing.
Personally I think a mixed policy like Norway is pursuing is most likely.

I agree, we'll probably end up with a hybrid model. The environmental impact of oil drilling and refining isn't a good thing either

But that is not my experience.
I have an EV Harley. It’s guaranteed for only 5 years. It’s 4 years old already losing capacity. That small loss is a pita.
When you ask how long it’s expected to last they shrug and say maybe eight, we don’t know.
The battery will have to be fully replaced at quite some cost.

Wow that's not good, and luckily not at all typical of what you see in modern EVs. I've recently bought a secondhand Fiat 500e: just over 4 years old and zero battery degradation (with another 4 years left on the manufacturer's warranty).

How many cells does the Harley battery have? It could be just one or two of them dragging the rest down, could be worth getting an EV specialist to take a look and see if the bad cells can be replaced. I saw a video on YouTube a while ago where someone had bought an old Nissan Leaf at auction which turned out to have a duff battery. It cost them relatively little (in relation to the price of the car) to have the bad cells switched out.

We ar currently in the process of decarbonizing our fleet at work (we have an unofficial policy that if a department wants to replace a vehicle, they have to buy an electric one). I’m actually managing that particular project, which has been pretty interesting since I’m not really a “car person”. So far everyone has been happy with the EVs we’ve gotten. I’m actually currently in the middle of buying 4 more, and our first electric pickup trucks (if procurement ever gives me the OK, but that’s another story…)

Making the move to electric is a bit of a learning curve.....everything you thought you knew no longer applies We swapped to an EV about 14 months ago.....and after having it less than a week took it on a road trip to Germany (the trip was already booked so we had no choice in the matter). It meant we had to learn very quickly.....was fun tho I think the vast majority of people who try EVs end up liking them a lot and don't want to go back to ICE...that's why when we needed a second car it had to be electric.