Ukraine

caseydog said:
Have you not been paying attention to Putin? His speeches? His writings?

Yes, he wants Ukraine! He wants to "reunite" Ukraine with mother Russia. He has said it publicly over and over. He considered Crimea part of Russia, so he took it. He considers ALL of Ukraine part of Russia, and now he's taking it by force. His goal is to install a puppet government in Ukraine, and rule it, with an iron fist if necessary.

I just can't see anyone being an apologist for Putin. NATO was never a "threat" to Russia and Russian borders. Furthermore, NATO exists because of the former Soviet Union, and now Putin's Russia.

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with your assessment.

CD
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No problem here CD. I'm not making an argument for Putin just describing it in a way that most aren't, especially liberty media . Putin needs to be handled very quickly. To Russia NATO is a threat just like missiles in Cuba were a threat or WMD in Iraq, a perceived threat. No western country is guilt free of atrocities. Personally it's too political where the elitists of the world get to play this game with death and destruction as the currency. Most people given half a chance whether it be in Britain, Canada, Russia, Ukraine, Germany et al would gladly live in harmony with each other and this generally is the problem where it's we the people that have the power not the elitists but we need to figure out a way to govern that properly in a new world forward or we're all in a lot of hurt. Liberty media is owned by the elitists so there's that as well. The thought of people like Biden, Harris and Trudeau having that kind of power over a continent is absolutely mindboggling and what is worse is how they got there, by us the people. Something fundamental has to change in the way people think together so what's happening in Ukraine doesn't ever happen again. Cheers.
 
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The Velvet Curtain said:
An article that tries to answer the question as to why the Russian airforce have been so ineffective over Ukraine:

Is the Russian Air Force Actually Incapable of Complex Air Operations?

TLDR: they are just as under trained and inept as the army.
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Yeah, the lack of any substantial or successful Air Forces action from Russia has me perplexed, too. They should have been the first ones in, to knock out Ukranian command and control.

Add to that, Russian tanks are breaking down and running out of fuel. Captured Russian troops are saying they weren't told they were going to war -- they thought this was a military excersise.

I'm encouraged by this kind of news. I hope it keeps going like this.

CD
 
garlichead said:
No problem here CD. I'm not making an argument for Putin just describing it in a way that most aren't, especially liberty media . Putin needs to be handled very quickly. To Russia NATO is a threat just like missiles in Cuba were a threat or WMD in Iraq, a perceived threat. No western country is guilt free of atrocities. Personally it's too political where the elitists of the world get to play this game with death and destruction as the currency. Most people given half a chance whether it be in Britain, Canada, Russia, Ukraine, Germany et al would gladly live in harmony with each other and this generally is the problem where it's we the people that have the power not the elitists but we need to figure out a way to govern that properly in a new world forward or we're all in a lot of hurt. Liberty media is owned by the elitists so there's that as well. The thought of people like Biden, Harris and Trudeau having that kind of power over a continent is absolutely mindboggling and what is worse is how they got there, by us the people. Something fundamental has to change in the way people think together so what's happening in Ukraine doesn't ever happen again. Cheers.
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Biden and Harris were elected in free and fair elections. I can't speak for Trudeau, but haven't heard anything that leads me to believe he wasn't democratically elected.

Liberty Media is fringe media, at least in the US. They have little effect on public opinion here.

CD
 
caseydog said:
Biden and Harris were elected in free and fair elections. I can't speak for Trudeau, but haven't heard anything that leads me to believe he wasn't democratically elected.

Liberty Media is fringe media, at least in the US. They have little effect on public opinion here.

CD
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I meant main stream media. Yes they were democratically elected, that was kind of my point.
 
garlichead said:
I meant main stream media. Yes they were democratically elected, that was kind of my point.
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I thought you meant the company, Liberty Media. The main stream media is a mixed bag. It includes MSNBC on the left, and FOXnews on the far right. There is a lot in between. To me, it is the fringe media that has spawned thanks to the internet that is the big threat to information in the US. They can say anything, and not get fact checked.

As for "things need to change," I don't know you change "one person, one vote" without fundamentally changing what a democracy is, and people vote their beliefs. I think freedom of the press, with all of its faults, is certainly better than what Russia has. The rest of my family believes whatever they hear on FOX. Do I think we should ban FOX? No. Freedom isn't always pretty, but it is better than the alternative.

CD
 
caseydog said:
I thought you meant the company, Liberty Media. The main stream media is a mixed bag. It includes MSNBC on the left, and FOXnews on the far right. There is a lot in between. To me, it is the fringe media that has spawned thanks to the internet that is the big threat to information in the US. They can say anything, and not get fact checked.

As for "things need to change," I don't know you change "one person, one vote" without fundamentally changing what a democracy is, and people vote their beliefs. I think freedom of the press, with all of its faults, is certainly better than what Russia has. The rest of my family believes whatever they hear on FOX. Do I think we should ban FOX? No. Freedom isn't always pretty, but it is better than the alternative.

CD
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Open dialog is essential that's for sure. The media in Russia is considered main stream media, in Russia. There are other underground media sources (fringe), but death is on the line there.

Also I thought far right were considered white supremist and neo nazi's and Fox is associated or considered that, is surprising but I really have no idea. I don't watch FOX but have watched a few times like I have with CNN or MSNBC.
 
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garlichead said:
Just to be clear I'm a person that believes no country should invade another country, period. That of course is just naive. Of course being a pacifist isn't reality in this world and my heart goes out to all the people that have lost their lives and homes. These talks aren't under any ceasefire and the real talks should be between Biden and Putin imo. The US hold all the cards and NATO basically just fall in line. It's the threat of NATO and the buildup of their military with NATO countries supplying Ukraine with these capabilities. Russia isn't buying it. Later.
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Since Ukraine is obviously involved, should they not be included as a major factor in such talks?
 
garlichead said:
Open dialog is essential that's for sure. The media in Russia is considered main stream media, in Russia. There are other underground media sources (fringe), but death is on the line there.

Also I thought far right were considered white supremist and neo nazi's and Fox is associated or considered that, is surprising but I really have no idea. I don't watch FOX but have watched a few times like I have with CNN or MSNBC.
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Fox news is usually only on by complete accident while scrolling through the channels. Occasionally we watched it when Trump was president just for laughs, and also at times we would vacilate between CNN/MSNBC and Fox just to see how far off base to the left or right they were with their propoganda.
 
garlichead said:
Also I thought far right were considered white supremist and neo nazi's and Fox is associated or considered that, is surprising but I really have no idea. I don't watch FOX but have watched a few times like I have with CNN or MSNBC.
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As an American, I would characterize FOX as having a "wink and a nudge" relationship with the extremists, including neo-nazi groups and white supremacists. They don't overtly support those groups, but are sometimes apologists to their cause. These groups are a loyal part of their audience base. You gotta' feed your base.

In relation to Ukraine, FOX editorial talking heads were on Putin's side, especially Tucker Carlson, until the invasion. Now they are backpedaling, and have taken the position that the invasion is a bad thing, and is the fault of Joe Biden's weakness, and that Putin wouldn't DARE invade Ukraine if Trump were still President.

MSNBC is the opposite, but not as good at it as FOX is. FOX has propaganda down to an art form. MSNBC is kind of a liberal FOX wannabe.

CD
 
Mountain Cat said:
Since Ukraine is obviously involved, should they not be included as a major factor in such talks?
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The invasion of Ukraine are the consequences of failed diplomacy between Russia and the west who are NATO, the EU and the USA and the USA is the big guy in the playground and what they say the rest just fall in line. Russia and the US and the west had no interest for the most part in Ukraine after the disarmament or Ukraine's nuclear program in 94 until the late 2000's basically. If you research, there are storylines that would supply data and cause someone to pause and suggest this invasion was inevitable. No one seeing this coming before the buildup is main stream media's take on this it looks like, which is interesting because on one front that suggestion dispels blame.
 
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caseydog said:
As an American, I would characterize FOX as having a "wink and a nudge" relationship with the extremists, including neo-nazi groups and white supremacists. They don't overtly support those groups, but are sometimes apologists to their cause. These groups are a loyal part of their audience base. You gotta' feed your base.

In relation to Ukraine, FOX editorial talking heads were on Putin's side, especially Tucker Carlson, until the invasion. Now they are backpedaling, and have taken the position that the invasion is a bad thing, and is the fault of Joe Biden's weakness, and that Putin wouldn't DARE invade Ukraine if Trump were still President.

MSNBC is the opposite, but not as good at it as FOX is. FOX has propaganda down to an art form. MSNBC is kind of a liberal FOX wannabe.

CD
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I watch them all...I don't agree with them all, but I watch them all...every once and a while it makes you look at things from another angle..If you just watch the one you agree with, what's the point?
 
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